PHEV OR HEV? High Mileage

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HighwayStar
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:21 am

Post by HighwayStar »

Greetings all, I am looking at getting a Niro as my next car. I am doing about 60000 miles per year.
Is it worth paying the extra for the PHEV?

tonybkent
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:02 pm

Post by tonybkent »

Wow, that's a lot of miles. 164 per day on average.

Dare I say that a full EV like the eNiro will be much more cost effective? Easily covers the daily range (250ish motorways I think). Tops up quickly at rapid charger. About a quarter of the cost per mile and lower if you have a good off-peak electricity tariff. You might find it pays for itself with that many miles. Assuming you can charge at home which admittedly only about 60% can.
jerrytaff
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:28 pm

Post by jerrytaff »

I would tend to agree that the EV sounds the most cost effective - despite its high intial cost. However, Kia have already sold the 600 E-Niros they allocated to the UK for 2019, so if you want to change car anytime soon it doesn't seem to be an option .

Of the two other options, the PHEV is great for short journeys, but apart from the 30 miles or so it can travel on pure electric, the rest of the time it will be operating in HEV mode. In that mode it is marginally less fuel efficient than an HEV (if the HEV is equipped with 16" wheels) due to the extra battery weight.

So, although the PHEV suits my mix of journeys very well, I think you would be better off saving some money and going with the HEV.
2018 PHEV 3 in Gravity Blue :D
Previous DS (formerly Citroen) DS5 Prestige BlueHDi S/S Auto 2.0, Jaguar X type 2.0 S Diesel
HaxbyPete
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:18 am

Post by HaxbyPete »

Hello, I have been running my self-charging Niro Hybrid HEV for almost 2 1/2 years now and I am really delighted with it. It comes up for replacement in September and I really can't see any reason to change to a PHEV or an E-Niro with their greater cost and their higher dependency on plug-in charging.

If I was driving 60,000 miles a year as you are I doubt that I would have the time to re-charge en-route and may not have the opportunity to always find a convenient overnight charging point at hotels or car parks. That would worry me as, whilst the Hybrid versions will always have 'something in the tank' the all-electric car would not. I am not brave enough to go fully electric just yet.

The plug-in PHEV version also used to have a government grant of £3,500 towards it;s cost. That ha s now been removed and the grant is only available on all-electric cars as the Fleet operators were found to be playing fast and loose with the plug-in grant and tax savings whilst still running the cars on all-petrol. Now it is quite a lot more expensive than the self-charging version and not worth the extra to me.

I only drive 6,000 miles a year as I am now retired and most of that is local driving. But I get excellent economy and on a longer run this week I got 63.7 mpg with an average over the last tank full of 43.6 mpg and 375 miles in colder weather. This will rise back to around 55mpg and 435 miles per tank in warmer weather.

So I will be replacing my self-charging Hybrid with another of the same, just in a different colour, in September. I have looked at the whole market and I cannot see any other self-charging hybrid that I would prefer to have right now !

Hope this helps you.
eLTe
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:14 am

Post by eLTe »

60000 miles? Geez.

It’s either full electric or diesel for that kind of mileage.

Full electric if you can find a car that’ll do your daily range. Diesel if not.

Hybrid is pointless for that kind of mileage assuming most of it will be motorway / dual carriageway. Decent diesel will get better MPG than HEV and be much nicer to drive (more torque etc)

If it is all driving round town the HEV is the way to go.

PHEV only good for small distance frequent driving with the ability to recharge in between.
HaxbyPete
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:18 am

Post by HaxbyPete »

Diesel ? Isn't that a dirty word nowadays ? I can't think why anyone with a view to the future would buy a diesel car any more as they are going to be worthless in the next few years the way that the environment controls are going here and elsewhere in the World.
radar2018
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:26 pm

Post by radar2018 »

At 60000 miles annually any car will be worthless in 2 years and a diesel car will be cheaper, I agree I will not buy another diesel for reasons you give but I only do 10000 miles
KIA NIRO PHEV OCT 2018 Gravity Blue
jerrytaff
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:28 pm

Post by jerrytaff »

Don't write off the hybrid for such high mileage. It matches (or exceeds) most diesels when it comes to mpg in the real world, the fuel is cheaper, and there are tax and congestion charge advantages.

The last 2 diesels I had averaged about 42 -44mpg in real world driving. (one was Euro 5, the other Euro 6 2015 registered DS) . The DS could get 60mpg if I drove at a constant 60mph on the motorway,dropping to 48mpg at 70mph, but only about 35mpg in town despite the start-stop and other gizmos.

The worst I have ever had out of my PHEV so far has been 60.5 mpg. That was when it failed to charge overnight, and I ran it around town the next day, starting with 0 miles EV range. The HEV should be marginally better.

Most of the Ubers in London seem to be Prius Hybrids for a reason - economics. I tracked one for a couple of days (my daughter's Android phone was left in it and it took that long to contact the driver to recover it). In that time it easily covered 400 miles - at that rate it would comfortably exceed 60k miles in a year.

So, if HighwayStar is using it for mini-cabbing (especially into London), or for business as a company car, then, even without considering the environment, there would be good reasons to go for a Niro, which IMHO is a far nicer car to drive and to sit in all day than the Prius. The HEV should work out marginally cheaper than the PHEV unless he can recharge it during the day, and its slightly larger boot would be an advantage.
2018 PHEV 3 in Gravity Blue :D
Previous DS (formerly Citroen) DS5 Prestige BlueHDi S/S Auto 2.0, Jaguar X type 2.0 S Diesel
eLTe
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:14 am

Post by eLTe »

Read my post. HEV for town driving is a perfectly acceptable option.

Diesel would be far more economical for long haul mileage and generally cheaper to buy than HEVs. My 8 year old diesel insignia gets 50-55mpg without much effort on my daily commute (130 miles a road / motorway). Diesel is only a dirty word for the longer term future. Diesel isn’t dead yet and modern diesels are far greener than they used to be.

Future value of car is irrelevant doing that mileage, most would be traded in every 2-3 years and not be worth much anyway. In 3 years time BEV mileage and charge rates will increase making it more of a prospect for long distance commuting.
jerrytaff
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:28 pm

Post by jerrytaff »

Diesel would be far more economical for long haul mileage and generally cheaper to buy than HEVs. My 8 year old diesel insignia gets 50-55mpg without much effort on my daily commute (130 miles a road / motorway).
But with an HEV you should be able to get 60mpg or more for the same journey. I did 135 miles today in my PHEV . That included Watford to Oxford return on M25 and M40 with the active cruise control set to 70mph. - ok.. I did manage to charge it after the first 20 miles, but I got 92 mpg out of it overall for the day.

{ so that works out at just under 1.5 gallons - and if it is assumed that I achieved 50 miles in EV mode (20 miles, then 30 after re-charging the battery) without using any fuel, then I achieved 58mpg over the other 85 miles. In fact, as I used the heater when in EV mode, I did use some petrol in those first 50 miles, and I would have achieved around 60mpg when in hybrid mode}.

So, purchase price aside, why are you so certain that Diesel is more economical? - Today's average prices according to Petrolprices.com are 128.7p /itre for Diesel, and 119.4p a mile for petrol. So, an HEV would only need to achieve 47mpg to cost the same in fuel as a diesel doing 55mpg.

As far as purchase prices are concerned, I was originally thinking of buying a Peugeot 3008 , having rejected the 2008. The 3008 Diesel auto with bells and whistles comparable to the 3 has a list price of the order of £32k. With the 2008, it seems that even paying £26k, for a GT line with leather, it just isn't possible to specify active cruise control and many of the other features that the Niro 3 has. Looking at the Kia lineup - I'm not sure what the nearest equivalent would be to the Niro, but a Sportage 3 with Diesel engine and automatic transmission has a list price of over £27k, and if you want the active cruise control, you would have to go for a GT-line S at £32,755. So, I'm not sure that your assertion that diesels are generally cheaper than hybrids actually applies to the Niro.

Finally, having driven diesels for 13 years before buying my Niro, my experience is that the fuel injectors will need replacing/ refurbishing after somewhere between 70k miles and 110 k miles, depending on whether premium diesel has been used, or not. That will generally set you back over £1000 and would, in this instance, occur within 2 years of purchase. I doubt that clogged or leaky injectors is covered on many warranties if it occurs after 100k miles. That's before you start to look at the problems with EGR valves (especially VWs after the mods required following the emissions cheat scandal), or issues likely to be experienced with the turbo if doing such a high mileage.
...modern diesels are far greener than they used to be.
I, too used to believe that marketing bull. They are not really greener outside the artificial test regime, just a different type of dirty. Spewing out more invisible NOx instead of sooty particles. Also, the emissions testing never covers the regen cycle. If ever you have stopped in the middle of that cycle, you will have noticed a horrid non-green choking, burning smell as all the crap that has collected is burnt off in one go.
2018 PHEV 3 in Gravity Blue :D
Previous DS (formerly Citroen) DS5 Prestige BlueHDi S/S Auto 2.0, Jaguar X type 2.0 S Diesel
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